This started on a Facebook post of mine. This was the post:
For a simple example, one of my favorite strings facts of our world that seems so perfectly "designed" is the whole set of properties surrounding water. For one, the 326 million trillion gallons of water on the Earth, hasn't ever changed by a significant amount. Two, it's surface tension and the fact that it is one of the very few naturally occurring substances known to man that is less dense in it's solid state than it's liquid. Which, in an evolutionary standpoint, provides a brilliant environment to single-cell organisms to exist and flourish. Moreover, water makes up about 6o% of our bodies. It regulates our body temperature. Also, it helps flush our system of waste while providing lubricative traffic to dissolve and help provide us with nutrients to survive. Not to mention how it water can effect your mood and state of being. Simply, without anyone of these properties of water, our planet would be unable to support the level of life that it does.
As far as how I feel about "god" it's, as previously mentioned, is an internal debate I have between my conscious perception and subconscious perception because, it "feels" like there is more, but logically, there may not be. I can't necessarily argue about an existence of a deity or deities because, I, myself, haven't come to, nor see myself coming to, terms on that subject.
However, the debate Creationism vs. Evolution has always sparked an interest to me because if one had a God that was all-knowing and all-powerful why would one put it past this being to design an organism to get better as it's existence progresses. It's like a car company creating a "base car" that developed, changed, and repaired itself according to it's driver(s) and environment. Sure the car company would go out of business because no one would ever need to replace said car, unless, of course, this fantastic car company had a monopoly of this vehicle. Which, in theory, a god does. (This theory could also be applied as an explanation to the Big Bang Theory.)
I've also toyed with the idea that when people say "God is within you" it's actually literal. God may be the sum of all collected consciousnesses and life-forms as for the so-called "devil." Less like a being, more like a force. This theory is basically my explanation for everyone having a "good-side" and a "bad-side" whether or not they can be deemed a "bad person" or "good person."
When I tackle the "something more" quandary I look for things that have patterns, things that could have possibly been designed from something that knows or views the "bigger picture." Water is my favorite example because I find it amazing. However, a few other examples would be: The four laws of Fundamental Interaction, Mathematics, consciousness, how DNA is argumentatively a programming language, also, as a believer in Karma, there seems to be a balance to things (bases vs. acids and Newton's Third Law of Motion to name a few logical examples) and, yet, the simple question, Why?"
Myke wonders why it's a test when bad things happen to good people. You know, sans faith, it's basically unjust punishment...
- A Friend of Mine posted:
"Bad things happen to good people because there is no God and everything is random. Please reply back if you want to argue out the issue. I love religious debates. Life has no inherant meaning besides the one we give it as individuals."
- Myke:
"Mr. -----, my faith does not rest upon my god, I've fought an internal struggle with that since I was five. However, most the time I do believe that there is something more. There are just too many coincidences for life to exist. Let alone intelligent and conscious life. Still, all that said, my faith lies within balance.
(I love these things to, but I like to view them more as discussions...)"
- Friend:
"Debate, discussion, as long as they arent called arguments I'm alright with them. What is this something more? Why do you feel that there are too many coincidences for life to simply exist? With an infinity of planets and a universe that seems to stretch back endlessly is it hard to imagine that our kind of life would erupt from the ether? I find the concept of self awareness probably the most fascinating subject ever. Its as if the universe suddenly became aware of itself and split its conciousness off into seperate groups. Is there another alternative to the ideas of life evolving from matter and energy, and the other God reason? If it is God, then God is concious is he not and if he is then attributing it to him by saying that intelligent life is a coincidence seems to be futile. Isnt the concept of coincidence totally dependant on your perspective of it being a coincidence? Before your concious mind entered the world there was no such a thing as a coincidence until people came up with the concept which arose from their individual perspective on the world. I would bet that before people, when there was just animals, and before that when there was just ameba, and before that when there was just matter coincidence did not exist."
- Myke:
"The "something more" could be a self-indulgent trait broad-casted by my personal perception. However, the very fact that I am conscious and I do exist leads me to believe that there is some sort of energy that relates both directly and indirectly to, not only, our development, but our very existence.
For a simple example, one of my favorite strings facts of our world that seems so perfectly "designed" is the whole set of properties surrounding water. For one, the 326 million trillion gallons of water on the Earth, hasn't ever changed by a significant amount. Two, it's surface tension and the fact that it is one of the very few naturally occurring substances known to man that is less dense in it's solid state than it's liquid. Which, in an evolutionary standpoint, provides a brilliant environment to single-cell organisms to exist and flourish. Moreover, water makes up about 6o% of our bodies. It regulates our body temperature. Also, it helps flush our system of waste while providing lubricative traffic to dissolve and help provide us with nutrients to survive. Not to mention how it water can effect your mood and state of being. Simply, without anyone of these properties of water, our planet would be unable to support the level of life that it does.
As far as how I feel about "god" it's, as previously mentioned, is an internal debate I have between my conscious perception and subconscious perception because, it "feels" like there is more, but logically, there may not be. I can't necessarily argue about an existence of a deity or deities because, I, myself, haven't come to, nor see myself coming to, terms on that subject.
However, the debate Creationism vs. Evolution has always sparked an interest to me because if one had a God that was all-knowing and all-powerful why would one put it past this being to design an organism to get better as it's existence progresses. It's like a car company creating a "base car" that developed, changed, and repaired itself according to it's driver(s) and environment. Sure the car company would go out of business because no one would ever need to replace said car, unless, of course, this fantastic car company had a monopoly of this vehicle. Which, in theory, a god does. (This theory could also be applied as an explanation to the Big Bang Theory.)
I've also toyed with the idea that when people say "God is within you" it's actually literal. God may be the sum of all collected consciousnesses and life-forms as for the so-called "devil." Less like a being, more like a force. This theory is basically my explanation for everyone having a "good-side" and a "bad-side" whether or not they can be deemed a "bad person" or "good person."
When I tackle the "something more" quandary I look for things that have patterns, things that could have possibly been designed from something that knows or views the "bigger picture." Water is my favorite example because I find it amazing. However, a few other examples would be: The four laws of Fundamental Interaction, Mathematics, consciousness, how DNA is argumentatively a programming language, also, as a believer in Karma, there seems to be a balance to things (bases vs. acids and Newton's Third Law of Motion to name a few logical examples) and, yet, the simple question, Why?"
- Friend:
"I dont know in what order to answer this question seeing as it leaves me with a lot to say and reflect upon. My favorite part about it is that you are the only person ever in my life to write me a message with the world quandary in it. This is truly indicative of a writer.
I personally cant get behind the general feel behind this message, although parts of it I agree with 100%. What with talking politics with you in the past as well as brief interludes of philosophical meanderings I feel that we kind of see things in the same sort of way, while always having just that little bit of difference which makes things interesting. Now....
First of all, I dont feel that there is a real point to be made by saying that the universe is truly "ordered". What exactly would a disordered universe look like? Its impossible to imagine. It would be like trying to imagine a color which didnt exist. The universe appears to have order because you yourself with having a mind are an ordered being, but this doesnt really prove a point. There seems to be no why. If there were a purpose, what is the deal with the 98% of junk DNA that is just kind of hanging out in our body? What could possibly be the purpose of a child who dies the moment it is born, or a woman who must die in agony to give birth to a child? Did the holocaust have a historical point? It couldnt have been genocide because the jewish people have endured. There also is no Karma. Or at least the cause for karma seems very tentative. They never caught Jack the Ripper, and Zodiac was allowed to roam free after the murders he commited. Polpot killed 21% of Cambodias population, and died under house arrest. These are just examples by name. Anyone who has lived to even a very young age knows that there are many many unsolved murders which go on all the time. Does anyone really believe that the people who were never caught somehow had awful things happen to them and its just that no one was there to see. I myself doubt that this is true.
I would at least hope that it could be agreed upon that if there is a divine plan to things and that there is a god the plan that he has put into place doesnt involve us as the center of importance. If I were going to buy the divine plan idea I would have to say that Bears and Lions and Ants and Amebas have just as important a role in the molding of that plan as humans. Viruses surely must play a more important part. Who knows how many people viruses have destroyed, more then probably the most vehement serial killer.
I dont think that the water thing is all that remarkable when you factor in the size of the universe. Water has these properties on earth, and lacks them on innumerous other planets. I'm not a mathmetician, I completely suck at math, but I do know that in my mind the properties of water sustaining life on earth are not that impressive to me. They are lacking everywhere else that we know about. I feel that to think that its remarkable that water is in the position of sustaining life on this planet is egocentric because you dont seem to be factoring in the fact that the conditions dont exist anywhere else that we know of.
You know that according to the Catholic Church officially God did create the universe to move towards the direction of perfection. This is their explanation for the suffering in the world. The world is in a constant process of moving toward God's perfection. To me it seems like an awfully weak explanation. I agree with you on why would he make people get better, but I would take it further and ask why would he create an earth at all? If he can already create a perfect heaven, and he wants man to be the center of his universe, why create an imperfect earth? How can it be explaned that the religious want to say that God will end time by bringing man into heaven to be with him, when he could have just started things off that way. I have never understood that, and no one ever seems to ask that question. Its like with suicide bombers who kill themselves and others and believe that the people who arent them will live in hell for eternity. If you already believe that someone is going to hell for eternity why does it matter? Why not wait for death to take him naturally? I do feel like you that there is some sort of animating principle to a human being sort of like a soul. There is some energy that makes life what it is that science just doesnt know about yet and I feel that somehow there is probably some kind of sixth sense. Have you ever wondered about people feeling eyes on the back of there head? Its a very real thing that I have felt before and I'm sure you probably have to and its pretty accurate. With no physical interaction you can feel when someone is staring at you. Why is it that some ideas tend to come together in society by several different people at the same time? Most styles of music dont come from one person, but from several different people who all at once started playing the same kind of thing without interacting with each other. I feel that there must be some kind of unknown collective unconcious, the evidence is there for me and the evidence for a soul is to. However, I dont think that its what religion tends to say that it is, I think that you kind of lose your individuality into the collective unconcious (great divine energy?) and you are sort of left as a free floating awareness with no memory of your former life. Whatever the afterlife is (and I tend to believe that there is a kind of one) it is so alien to life now that it isnt even comparable.
I will leave off on this message with two thoughts. I feel that good and bad are concepts that relate to species survival and cultural morality, they are not truly real things. I also want to say that although DNA is a programming language, its more an argument against design then for it. It moves via a system that reacts to environmental changes. It is a process in action, but is the exact opposite of indicating some sort of plan. If it was going along the path of a plan it would change unpredictably whenever the maker of the plan had deemed that it should."
I personally cant get behind the general feel behind this message, although parts of it I agree with 100%. What with talking politics with you in the past as well as brief interludes of philosophical meanderings I feel that we kind of see things in the same sort of way, while always having just that little bit of difference which makes things interesting. Now....
First of all, I dont feel that there is a real point to be made by saying that the universe is truly "ordered". What exactly would a disordered universe look like? Its impossible to imagine. It would be like trying to imagine a color which didnt exist. The universe appears to have order because you yourself with having a mind are an ordered being, but this doesnt really prove a point. There seems to be no why. If there were a purpose, what is the deal with the 98% of junk DNA that is just kind of hanging out in our body? What could possibly be the purpose of a child who dies the moment it is born, or a woman who must die in agony to give birth to a child? Did the holocaust have a historical point? It couldnt have been genocide because the jewish people have endured. There also is no Karma. Or at least the cause for karma seems very tentative. They never caught Jack the Ripper, and Zodiac was allowed to roam free after the murders he commited. Polpot killed 21% of Cambodias population, and died under house arrest. These are just examples by name. Anyone who has lived to even a very young age knows that there are many many unsolved murders which go on all the time. Does anyone really believe that the people who were never caught somehow had awful things happen to them and its just that no one was there to see. I myself doubt that this is true.
I would at least hope that it could be agreed upon that if there is a divine plan to things and that there is a god the plan that he has put into place doesnt involve us as the center of importance. If I were going to buy the divine plan idea I would have to say that Bears and Lions and Ants and Amebas have just as important a role in the molding of that plan as humans. Viruses surely must play a more important part. Who knows how many people viruses have destroyed, more then probably the most vehement serial killer.
I dont think that the water thing is all that remarkable when you factor in the size of the universe. Water has these properties on earth, and lacks them on innumerous other planets. I'm not a mathmetician, I completely suck at math, but I do know that in my mind the properties of water sustaining life on earth are not that impressive to me. They are lacking everywhere else that we know about. I feel that to think that its remarkable that water is in the position of sustaining life on this planet is egocentric because you dont seem to be factoring in the fact that the conditions dont exist anywhere else that we know of.
You know that according to the Catholic Church officially God did create the universe to move towards the direction of perfection. This is their explanation for the suffering in the world. The world is in a constant process of moving toward God's perfection. To me it seems like an awfully weak explanation. I agree with you on why would he make people get better, but I would take it further and ask why would he create an earth at all? If he can already create a perfect heaven, and he wants man to be the center of his universe, why create an imperfect earth? How can it be explaned that the religious want to say that God will end time by bringing man into heaven to be with him, when he could have just started things off that way. I have never understood that, and no one ever seems to ask that question. Its like with suicide bombers who kill themselves and others and believe that the people who arent them will live in hell for eternity. If you already believe that someone is going to hell for eternity why does it matter? Why not wait for death to take him naturally? I do feel like you that there is some sort of animating principle to a human being sort of like a soul. There is some energy that makes life what it is that science just doesnt know about yet and I feel that somehow there is probably some kind of sixth sense. Have you ever wondered about people feeling eyes on the back of there head? Its a very real thing that I have felt before and I'm sure you probably have to and its pretty accurate. With no physical interaction you can feel when someone is staring at you. Why is it that some ideas tend to come together in society by several different people at the same time? Most styles of music dont come from one person, but from several different people who all at once started playing the same kind of thing without interacting with each other. I feel that there must be some kind of unknown collective unconcious, the evidence is there for me and the evidence for a soul is to. However, I dont think that its what religion tends to say that it is, I think that you kind of lose your individuality into the collective unconcious (great divine energy?) and you are sort of left as a free floating awareness with no memory of your former life. Whatever the afterlife is (and I tend to believe that there is a kind of one) it is so alien to life now that it isnt even comparable.
I will leave off on this message with two thoughts. I feel that good and bad are concepts that relate to species survival and cultural morality, they are not truly real things. I also want to say that although DNA is a programming language, its more an argument against design then for it. It moves via a system that reacts to environmental changes. It is a process in action, but is the exact opposite of indicating some sort of plan. If it was going along the path of a plan it would change unpredictably whenever the maker of the plan had deemed that it should."
I thought I said everything I needed to say and I think my friend did as well. Plus, I got distracted with work since the weekend started. Maybe I'll add to this discussion, maybe not. If I do, I'll be editing this. Also, I was hoping more people would chime in since it was on Facebook, but feel free to comment...
-Myke
Do you like Psychology Today? Oh, well, good. You won’t mind digging up the references for this information I’m presenting.
ReplyDeleteIn the following paragraphs, I will address brain size, information dissemination, primary bodily functioning, and animals. What does this have to do with God and evolution? Well, if the theory of evolution is sound then it is ‘logical’ that humans will continue to develop intelligence.
First, I will give a brief and partial overview of the brain central to the topic on which I am addressing. What are neurons (think high school biology)? Anybody? Simply, they are cells that receive information from other cells (e.g. nerve cells, sensory organs, and muscle).
How does information get from one neuron to another? Synapses. These are links between neurons or as I like to call them 'information highways.'
Now, from birth this complex mapping of neurons, which has served primary functions, becomes more complex. With this complexity, new abilities are formed such as walking, talking, and then more sophisticated cognitive functioning. As the brain grows, it gets larger and it develops more neurons. Because neurons transmit information, scientists believed advanced intelligence would result, but look at elephants! Despite popular belief, they are not that gifted. What scientists found was that extra neurons were utilized in ancillary functioning (e.g. breathing, organ function). Larger brains are found in larger beings. Larger beings need more neurons to operate everything inside the mass. If humans were to become more intelligent they would need bigger heads (I know someone with a big head and he’s not that smart *wink wink*. In addition, scientists have found that the birth canal isn’t getting any more expansive, so how would such a large head fit through such a tiny hole? Have you seen the movie ‘Alien’?
Synapses are also important. As the brain gets bigger the thick tubes must stretch. They get longer. They get thinner. The longer they are the longer it takes for a neurotransmitter, which carries the message, to get from one neuron to another. Longer transmission equals slow processing. Slow processing equals less intelligence. In addition, the thinner they are the more excited neurotransmitters become. Basically, if neurotransmitters were to dock at a synapse (singular) that was too thin the electrons would cluster up at the docking site causing overexcitement and destruction of the neuron. For a neuron, it would be the killer orgasm. Lol. Okay, that has no place here.
All that to say this: Humans did not evolve into intellectual beings. We were created this way. We are special, one of a kind, someone made us, and it wasn’t Gepetto.
So. ‘Friend.’ Before you pop, I have one more thing to say…
What are you afraid of? Hmm. This isn’t about concrete evidence that there is God. We know there is no concrete proof. It all comes down to belief. So let me give you something that is concrete in an abstract way. Emotion.
The three core emotions that motivate our responses are hurt, fear, and happiness. I don’t think you are arguing evolution for the sake of euphoric bliss. Something hurt you early on in life, so that you have shunned religion (I hate that word. I’m not religious. I have a belief) OR…you fear what’s going to happen if there is life after death. Maybe you would rather be dirt. Maybe it is easier to think you will be ‘just’ dirt. Maybe you've been a very. bad. boy. and you don’t want to think about consequences. Maybe you can’t fathom floating around for eternity. Maybe you like to argue. I don’t know. It’s existential anyway this thing we call Truth. Are you lying to yourself?
Have you ever examined the origin of your belief, ‘Friend’? Your belief comes from a thought. Your thought comes from an emotion. What stimulated your negative emotion? Was it a parent? Maybe it was something else. As for me? Oh, well, I’m happy in believing someone out there thinks I’m special.
Now let’s talk about the giraffe….